Word of caution

Hi all!

I have been working on a home for about 2 years and feel obligated to hand some advice out to those who want to do the same (just with less hassle). I know many of us try to avoid an architecht because they want 30% of the total cost of your project (oh yeah and they arent too motivated to find any savings for you since that hurts their income) and I dont blame you. However I urge that you take great care in choosing a residential designer as I have made a HUGE mistake in choosing mine. I will not say thier name suffice to say they are located in clinton twp.

I have completely designed this home and asked (after noticing this guy was less compitent than he portrayed) they simply create prints for the shell and I will deal with the rest through other specialized designers. They couldnt do that! I have to take them to court to get my $ back.

If you do contract anyone to do work for you and you expect it to take 6 months and it takes 2 years you would be angry too (especially since it isnt complete!). Be sure you get; in writing, TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE written in some agreement and signed by both parties. This way, if some shmuck from a residential design service gives you the run-around you can nail them. Otherwise you will have problems.

Also, for those of you who have the design bug, and an ability to play with computers (you dont have to be a pro) go to http://www.sketchup.com/ which is a FREE program from Google. It allows you to design a 3-d model so you can look at your design and communicate the idea fully to whoever creates your blue prints.

Another COOL thing is that you can download Google Earth and actually place your home on the spot you want. I used this to check out the solar angles (I am building solar passive) in certain months so that I did not overheat during the summer. Of course it does not account for trees but it does account for the solar path/angle at your latitude/longitude.

I am actually excited to say that I finally did hok up with competent people and I am preparing to break ground in no more than 2 mos!

Best of luck.

Interestingly, I took a similar path with different results. I did extensive modeling on SketchUp to find an approximate design that both my wife and I were satisfied with ( you can only imagine how many ideas we went through), did a lot of checking with the solar angles, and after satisfying ourselves with basic design, floorplan and solar issues, presented the 3D model to our architect. Because most all the time consuming issues of aesthetics had already been dealt with ( Do you like this? Do you like this?), the architect had less to do, and consequently could offload most of the work on the house to his support staff, thereby costing us less $. The result is a house that addresses our needs, both known (through our work) and unknown (through the architect's work). The combination is a result that could not have been achieved without the synergy of both parties. I believe that if you impress upon an architect your desire to keep costs to a minimum - as I did - and do your utmost to follow through on that principle - sacrificing what is immediately appealing for a more economical and thoughtful approach - you can have both an architecturally designed home and a budget that stays close to you expectations. As far as time goes, we initiated with the architect in April, submitted to the city this week, and will be breaking ground in August. -R.

Not a very similar path at all. You went through an arch. Which is fine but the few good names local to me did want 30% but you found someone who was willing to do something else. I did/do have everything planned to the tee before adding someone to just make it buildable.

I am not sure what your point is as I was just warning people of residential designers not architechts. Also to add Time is of the essence in any contract in which you need a date to be met (at risk of firing the person/company at no loss and full compensation)

You seem to regurgitate all the same stuff regarding the painstaking sacrifice of cost and need (I see you read magazines).

Good for you on your home, best of luck.

I must stress that I hold no brief for the architectural profession; in fact I do not count any amongst my friends or family.

What I am is a property owner.

I therefore believe I am impartial.

What confuses me is that architects have been taking quite a lot of stick both in LiveModern and in fabprefab.com.

Contributors seem to have a problem with the order of fees paid, in some cases purported to add 30% onto construction costs.

This to my mind is the wrong way to rationalize what certainly is a major cost item.

There are a multitude of reasons to brief an architect and I will not rehash them here.

What I will say is that I believe I am right in assuming that an architect designed house will on average live better, be more unique / effective and certainly offer a better return when selling the property.

If not is it the architect fault or your own for briefing the wrong person in the first place.

All said and done no-one is forcing you to pay the 30% premium, if it’s too much go elsewhere and accept what you get.

For what it is worth, 30% is to me an un-heard of percentage of construction cost for ANY architect to charge. The highest I have EVER heard a firm to charge is 25%, and that is from an AIA firm of the year that does a considerable amount of custom design of details, and by that I mean they are designing down to the custom shape of the baseboards and the custom manufactured handles and hardware on the cabinets.

10-15% is a MUCH more common percentage of construction budget for a firm to base their fees upon, and it is very easy to find folks comfortable with working for even less (say 6-8%)

The only way I can see 30% being remotely acceptable is if that was from a firm offering design/build services, where they would be GCin the project as well. If that was the case it seems it would break down into 20% for construction management and overhead and 10% design, which would STILL be higher than what most design/build firms would charge.

This is in no way meant to take away from what your experience was or is, but rather to clarify that a design fee based on 30% of a construction BUDGET is a bit out of the ordinary and not what most folks should expect to pay for design services.

Mark

You're kinda prickly, jbutka. I don't see the need for your sarcasm. I was simply pointing out that you and I had simlar approaches to the situation - thoughtful and specific preparation - before presenting to a design professional, where, indeed, our paths diverged. And that was my point. I chose an architect and you didn't. I believe my choice has worked out well for us, so far, and I see that your choice has not for you. For people reading this thread, they may find the two approaches enlightening. We both are trying to accomplish the same thing: warning folks of making potentially serious and energy-sapping mistakes before they even get to the "hard" part, building the house. Chill out. -R.

As an architect with a small residential firm I must add a few comments. The 30% of construction fee does not seem in line with what architects typically charge. 10-15% is more typical. Our firm does not charge a percent of construction, but on hourly rate based upon what the client is asking or needs for us to produce as drawings and how complicated the project is. For us this seems to work well for both the client and the architect, but it does require that we have had extensive knowledge on residential projects in order to know how long creating the drawings will take.

I can not stress enough that anyone seeking an architect for a house, go to a residential architect. Residential and commercial work are very different in most cases. Even if you are looking for a modern, edgy, commercial looking structure, you still may be much better off dealing with a licensed architect that specializes in residences versus a commercial architect.

Please shop around when selecting an architect. Of course I am biased and believe that they can be of great assistance to a project, but by shopping around you will find architects that really do care about the clients project, the time frame, the aesthetics, and that keeping costs mininized is a real concern.

Somehow this has turned into a debate about architechts. I am not sure why. I think many arch's are the way to go because they are like a lwayer, super, and builder all in one. My point was that most of the long standing firms (e.g. Young and Young) will laugh at the idea of a 2200 sqft home costing a consumer less than $600,000.00 (not counting land and the fact that I brought electricity to the site)


It is because of this that many people seek alternatives to archs. I am sure there are some great archs locally but my limited connections (I usually shop by word of mouth/reputation) turned up none that could build a house for less than 25% on the project and laughed at the same sqft/budget(before I showed them a plan!).

We all know to do your homework, and even that can fail. I simply wanted to give a bit of advice on a time-expectancy contract. You could go to court and complain that a service did not come through on its 6mos written/verbal-guarantee. You must have the words TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE written with a date so that if it is 6mos and 1 day you could nail them and get back your expenses (if you chose to do so). if those 5 words are not on a contract the company could easily say we tried and you are out of the courthouse waiting another 6mos or moving on.

That was it, just that point. Just warning the dreamers to follow and giving that advice. Just trying to help, bless all of you Arch's and all of you ppl who had a smooth process from land to home. Nuff said.

And actually, I have hired a builder since realizing that the residential design service I hired was incompetent (perhaps I will get my $ perhaps not) and his firm completed the plans, the basement is going in (sooner than anticipated), and we are moving on.


Sincerely,

Prickly jbutka

I can see both points here. I think JBUTKA is just frustrated... as would anyone not experienced in the industry.

I have spent a decade on my dream house (errr... houses). I've used an architect, who was actually pretty good for the price, which we agreed to a straight cost instead of a %. It would have been about 7% if the house were ever built... or even less. The only regret was not understanding what I wanted enough... ahead of time and asking the right questions of him.

My biggest gripe with a lot of architects (at least as far as my ignorance can tell) is that they don't know enough about construction and their drawing detail (or lack thereof) has. My architect's details were actually good, but lacked in the structural, but that was because we never closed out the project work... and I let things drag on so long that his desktop crashed a couple years later and we lost some info. So often times, architects design things that the builder has to build through inferring. That is not what I am about. Being the anal engineer I am, the drawing MUST explain every last (or at least a lot) detail. A lot of STICK construction relies of traditional methods known to everyone, but my SIP house and my details required detail thinking and drafting. I realize I am this tiny minority, but my issue is valid for me and I'm sure others out there seeking/knowing exactly what they want (i.e. Versus those that want the architect to do everything for them.). I basically wanted a highly qualified draftsman who could ENGINEER what I wanted.

Regardless, the desire for me to go with SIP construction required an architect that knew how to make drawings for SIPs (design and build). That is not too easy to find. And to find one that has a liking of modern styling makes it even harder. I believe Mark can do this, but then Mark was unknown to me a decade ago.

The gripe about FINDING the right architect or res designer is a valid one. It's not like they have websites galore (at least the ones us middle classers can afford) that you can see their work. I found my architect by stupid chance - I looked in the YellowPages at the myriad of architects in just AnnArbor, MI area (hundreds!) and a strange name stuck out. It wasn't one of those firms with a 3-last name... name. It was quite unique, funny, and bold. I just had to call. If finding a good residential, modern, affordable, talented architect was easy, there wouldn't be warning posts like this. SOme of us are lucky, some aren't. The same can be said of contractors... and customers for that matter.

Its really hard to provide you with much detail for a fee basis of 7% of construction cost. You can layout the scope of work, but cover all the conditions you will encounter, unlikely.

For 7%, he did quite a bit. As much as any architectural set of plans I've ever seen... and more. He was a small time architect so maybe I got a discount.

The problem is that a lot of architects still rely (knowing or unknowingly) on the builder to work out a lot of the details. That's my hang up. I needed to know to satisfy my desire to get exactly what my mind saw... dreams of.

I'd use him again in a heartbeat... and pay more to get more detail that I want, which I know is far beyond 99.9% of most customers' desires. I'm just goofy that way I guess.

Not wanting to delve off the point too far here, but the dilemma of architects not truly understanding the cost of what they are designing has come up for me a couple of times on two different houses. If I could rewind time, I might look into design/build firms a bit more...

Jason,

Sorry to hear you ran into that experience as some RD are good or better than some architects.

Sadly, I seem to be in a perpetual cycle of NOT building my dream house. We did find an architect (yellow pages of all things) year back from Chelsea area. DANGEROUS ARCHITECTS is the name and he is a small outfit, but quite easy-going and open to your desires. The best part? We actually got a good deal on a fixed cost (no percentage) for the "engineering", which included all the necessary drawings (elevations, plans, structural with details, aesthetic details/finish, and misc mechancial stuff). Me, being an engineer, I wanted more, but my level of thinking is usually left to high-end commercial structures... and more cost. I think the magic price was $15k and the house was projected to be ~$400k back ~12 years ago (a lot of steel construction and ~4500SF). Good thing we never went through with it, but the engineering I got from it is being integrated into my other projects. Some people spend their money on cars or stereos... I spend it on architecture. Hahahaha.

I think the 30% is desparation from those quoting it.  You'd think the economic climate of MI is bad enough that they should get a clue.

As much time as I have spent, it has also allowed me to learn A LOT, which will make me very educated as far as finding the right support people/contractors/etc. and being able to communicate to them intelligently so we have little issues.

Some of you architects here can maybe answer this, but some times I have noticed that when you are TOO EDUCATED of a buyer, they shun you (when house building times are good)... seemingly because either: a) They want to milk an ignorant buyer or b) They think you will be a headache.

I like to think my work in buying process equipment has been successful for both myself (actually GM) and the suppliers (i.e. I'm good at Project Mgt such that both sides win.), but it is hard to find contractors/etc. that will believe in you (trust) and vice versa.

Another thing... it is my belief that some RD exist because for the simple fact that ~90% of homes in America are ALL built the same damn way... AND that the builder himself is usually the person who KNOWS or TRANSLATES the generic elevation/plan drawings into components of MFG & ASM for his crew to build (i.e. You don't need detail drawings... and thus, the RDs don't provide them.). I think the problem with some "MODERN" home designs is that it MAY take detailing, because of a particular style challenge and/or component uncommon to most stick-building techniques (SIP, etc). I think that is where some of us consumers lose out... because we didn't know any better of the process details required PER OUR SPECIFIC house design desires/goals. We live and learn, right?

 

As an architect I welcome the educated client, someone who has a good grounding in their desires and has done some research really makes for a smooth process. However, some clients (speaking in general terms) believe they are educated but actually only know enough to make the process difficult and unsatisfying for themselves and the Architect. If a client comes to you and says I know I want this look and I want to pay this much, you have to be a little cautious. It may be that they can get exactly what they want for what they want because they have done the research and understand construction, costs, and materials. But more likely they have formed an opinion in their head of what they "think it should cost” (both for design time, fee, and construction cost) and refuse to listen to the licensed professional they have hired. The architect can get into a bad situation and this may be why some firms will turn down the "educated" client. Sometimes it is also about the "right fit." As an Architect, you often have to turn down clients if you know you cannot, or choose not, to provide the service they are looking for. Example, if someone ask me to design a Victorian inspired home I would let them know that I could do it, but would recommend they find someone who has more experience in this style of architecture. I AM BIASED and I do believe that if you hire a good Architect that they will design a home that works perfect for you as an individual and meets your needs better than you could have imagined, better than any draftsman or contractor could put together, and more likely than not better than you could do yourself. They will also be able to do it within you budget (if reasonable) and timeline. Funny how most people spend more time and effort researching the purchase of a plasma TV than finding someone to design his or her home. I like to think that I always look out for my client’s best interest, and that it is my duty not only to design a wonderful home for them and their family but also to help guide them around the pitfalls and smooth the process. If both sides see it more as a partnership and less as a product for a fee, the results will leave everyone satisfied.