opinions/experience with commerc VCT

Does anyone have any experience with Manningtons commercial VCT? I am considering the brushwork line in Canvas. The sample in the flooring studio had little detail and seemed perfect for what I wanted. It's a medium gloss but has a slight sand texture. Not in a fake plastic way. The website says that it will have a monolithic appearance when installed in a whole room.
The studio quoted me 2.79 a square foot and I thought for sure I would find it cheaper online. I was wrong. I can't even find a place that sells it online.
Any ideas?

I'm also considering Armstrongs stonetex exelon line in granite grey. I didn't get a quote while I was there and now I can't find any information about pricing online.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I don't mean to be the dark cloud on your floor covering choice but you may not know the characteristics of this type of tile. A VCT or Vinyl Composition Tile is used in commercial applications. It has to be sealed and waxed with a buffing machine on a regular basis. Mannington states this on their maintenance and care page for this product. http://www.mannington.com/commercial/technical/maintenance.asp
If the floor is not sealed and waxed dirt will begin to accumulate in the joints and eventually the tile will begin to turn up at the edges. I was in the flooring business for 17 years and have installed thousands of feet of VCT. Great product but not the best for residential. There are some laminate tiles or even solid vinyl tiles that do not require waxing if you still want the look of tile. Nafco is a solid vinyl tile you might try. They are owned by Tarkett. I hope this helps.
http://www.tarkett-floors.com/floors/site/en-us/topic/nafco/offer.asp

-Steve

soundman- I appreciate your comments. I did read the pdf on regular maintenance and first time preparation with a cross linked acrylic floor polish No idea what cross linked acrylic floor polish is..but I'll find out before I put it down.
I thought this would be a better solution for us than bamboo or wood. We have two large dogs and I like that I am at least able to strip and recoat. We seriously considered bamboo but once it's scratched, it's scratched. Unless of course you want to fill it in with putty.
I checked out the tarkett line and it looked too much like cheap stick down vinyl. I think because it lacks a true texture. It has that fat texture instead of the sanded. Does that make sense? It's not like a 'hard' finish...feels puffy to me.

I think I like the way the commercial lines feel like if you dropped it, it would break. More rigid. Plus it's 1/8 inch color throughout.

I'm not sure about the residential vinyl...if it has color throughout or not.

I wish I knew who had it installed, even in a commercial building so I could at least check it out completely done.

Thanks again!

Might you want to look at *strandwoven* bamboo? It's impregnated with resin and is incredibly tough, much much tougher than regular vertical or horizontal bamboo. I also like the look better, and some people make the case that it's also green because it makes use of the . Just make sure that the company you go with has environmentally relatively benign practices/choices wrt formaldehyde in its resin.

Here's one link:

http://www.strandwoven.com/Strandwoven_bamboo.htm

Just another thought...

Hey D - You and I are often on the same page.... we have VCT in our kitchen. It's been in for 2 1/2 years now. With two young kids and all the crap they bring in on their shoes (sand, etc.) it's holding up really well. I haven't had any of the "turning up" issues mentioned above, but it has been only two years. As for your theory on the solid color helping with the gouge factor, yes it does. The sand gets under chair legs, which are then scooted around, and it leaves scratches. One day I was demolishing a wall adjacent to my kitchen and I heard this tremendous crash. I walked into the kitchen and found all my beautiful serving platters in pieces on the floor - they had been vibrated out of the cabinet above the fridge from my pounding and left pretty good size gouges in the floor. With a good cleaning and a coat of wax most of this stuff disappears into the texture of the floor. I suppose you could even sand or buff out the deep scratches, but I don't have time for that. In short, it's flooring for commercial applications, so it should take a beating, right? I'm happy with mine. My only complaint is that it is COLD underfoot, compared with wood floors or vinyl. Hope this helps. -R.

R.- Cold underfoot sounds fabulous..it's been 117 here recently.
We do have a lot in common regarding materials. I'll have to send you photos when our house is finished...in about 10 years . I will post photos of the finished floor as soon as it's done.


We tore out the cement board this weekend. I was disappointed that it didn't work out the way I had hoped. The 8 3x5 pieces we had mortared to floor turned out to be not so mortared. They came right up. I have no idea what went wrong but I was pleased that we didn't have to work very hard to get them up.

Did you install a subfloor for your VCT or is it glued right to the concrete? I've heard good and bad regarding a subfloor.
We spent some time filling in every little divot and crack so it won't show through the vct.

flyleft- Thanks for the info about strandwoven bamboo. I didn't realize it was harder than the other bamboo products. My husband doesn't like that it looks hairy. I'm sending for some samples anyway just to test the toughness and see it natural light. It's so hard to tell if we'll like it from a computer monitor.

D -
We are on a raised foundation in a 68 year old house. So, the existing subfloor is 1x6 diagonally installed. I kept that and on top installed 1/4" plywood to give it a smoother surface, trying to keep the new floor height close to the existing hardwood floor height in the adjacent rooms. In retrospect, I should have used 3/4" and dealt with the height difference. The 1/4" mirrors the undulations in the old subfloor and it would look better a little smoother. So, you did good in filling everything you could on your subfloor. In fact, I would even consider the possibility of a really thin coat of self-leveling concrete, although there might be some adhesion issues.... I really don't know. FWIW, I'm also considering strand woven bamboo in our living areas. I've heard stories of people being disappointed with the performance of the regular bamboo, and I really like the renewable aspect of bamboo.
I would like to suggest that you post your issues with your cement board floor on the old thread about cement board floors. It was a long and interesting thread, and it would be really valuable to have your comments on the performance (or lack of) of the floor you installed. Personally, I'm still considering it, so I have selfish motives too.


-R.

Why not consider true linoleum (Forbo's Marmoleum etc.)? It seems to have all the benefits you are looking and, in sheet form, you won't have to worry about the edges coming up. They do recommend you give it a coat of acylic wax periodically, but it is mopped on and does not need to be buffed. It is about $6/SF installed (with 1/4 subfloor).

Hey there, I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I've been working in healthcare design for a number of years now and for many hospitals VCT is a mainstay in low-profile areas (such as corridors where image is not a factor. You could probably walk into any hospital and find miles of VCT to observe. Yes, color throughout is a definite - don't even bother with the lower priced commercial tiles with the color only on the top. I used Mannington, Armstrong, and Tarket a lot. However, maintenance is an issue - these facilities have round the clock maintenance staff people and the right equipment to make sure manufacturer's recommendations in care and maintenance are followed.

I agree with the post above about considering true linoleum - or why not consider cleaning and acid staining your concrete? You can't get any more modern and green than that. I think a concrete floor is a geat choice for durability, aesthetics, and sensability. There's some threads with photos and blogs here with instructions too. You might check them out. VCT and sheet vinyl about one of the poorest choices in terms of the environment and sustainability, but I'm not sure if that's a priority to you or not. Good luck on your project.

Rous ..I haven't considered true linoleum. You said that it doesn't need to be buffed. I just don't want something that has that
plastic looking shine like the cheap stick down tiles.

Knutter- my subfloor is a nightmare of holes, and old old glue. It's not sticky or anything ..it looks like someone painted the whole floor black. We removed three walls. Where the studs were attached to the floor there are cracks and holes. Staining isn't clean enough looking for me. I think it looks beautiful in some homes and businesses but it's much too dark and not nearly uniform enough.
You know the houses in Palms Springs where the floor looks uniform and white? I like that. I would have to clean up the subfloor and then pour a whole new floor.
If I could swing it, I would have poured terrazzo floors. It just doesn't make sense in a 350,000.00 home. Which is considered fairly low end in Scottsdale.

I am going to consider forbo. I haven't even looked into that yet...

When you say that maintenance is an issue- Is that because it's in a hospital and the floors are constantly walked on and rolled over 24/7? I'm sure the maintenance would be less in an home but I haven't heard anyone complain about the waxing and buffing yet. What sort of equipment will I need? I can't imagine storing a giant commercial buffer just to do 1600 sqft once or twice a year.
Btw, it's just the two of us (no kids and no plans for kids) and two dogs. We live here ...of course but we're also out a lot of the time..out with the dogs, out to eat. We don't beat up the floors. NO snow, no weather to speak of.
My floors will have a very uneventful life.


Oh hang on. image is not a factor..what do you mean? You can be honest. I can take it.

R- I'll go ahead with that post about the cement board. I need to gather my thoughts and re read the thread so I don't repeat myself.

I put a commercial (Armstrong) VCT floor in our old house, in the one first floor bathroom. It got a ton of use and always looked great. I just can't imagine having a problem with tile edges curling up, etc EVER, with normal residential use. The stuff is rock hard, hardly bends and when properly installed, is practially super glued to the subfloor. Unless there's an issue with the underlying floor material, I think you'd be hard pressed to harm a VCT floor in your house anytime this century unless you're going to be rolling heavy equipment around on it 24 hours a day. Be aware that it will telegraph any imperfections in the subfloor.

As far as maintenence goes, you definitely DO NOT need any special equipment.
As Rous said, just wiping on a coat or two of the sealer/polish makes it super shiny. If you like the really shiny look, the frequency with which you'll have to recoat with polish will depend on how you treat it. In our bathroom, I hardly ever had to apply the polish, but it was subjected to mostly bare or sock foot traffic and cat paws. If you're going to want it really shiny all the time, I'd say plan on wiping on a coat of polish once a month in the higher traffic areas, but keep in mind that's on a completely texture-less product. Something with texture seems like it would need less maintenence because it's less reflective.
The durability of the shine also depends on what you clean it with. For some reason, the Swiffer I occasionally used to clean the floor in there really took the shine off...

If I were going to cover a large area, I'd definitely think about using sheet material. One of the biggest factors to getting the VCT to look nice (and presumably function well i.e. no dirt build-up in cracks) is getting good, tight joints and you only have one chance because they absolutely will not budge once set on the adhesive.

We put down a VCT floor in our kitchen about six years ago. It has proven to be durable, but the twice a year maintenance (stripping, sealing and waxing) is a pain. We get a lot of traffic (five kids, dog, cat), so a more normal application may not require as much. In between, a wet mopping a couple of times a week works pretty well. The only issue we've had with it was when the dishwasher overflowed and the 5/8 waferboard subfloor we put down (to bring the level up 3/4 to match the wood floor of the living room)delaminated. We will be putting down a linoleum floor to reduce maintenance be more green once the kids move out - only fourteen years to go!

DLavery - Even when waxed, linoleum does not get shiney. It does have a subtle texture, sort of like a really stiff, thick leather.

Bearch - You have me wondering, why are you waiting until the kids move out?

...be more green... Hmmm, I was under the impression that VCT was made from primarily recycled content. Is that right? Is your point that Linoleum , being made from more natural ingredients, is more green? I guess that would make sense. -R.

Richierod, it depends on what your view on vinyl is. I follow the William McDonough school of throught that anything that is toxic to make, that is, toxic for people who are working in the factories where the stuff is actually made, is something I don't want to promote. I try to stay away from PVC, vinyl, vinyl siding, windows, etc. as much as possible. We just had a few workers in a PVC factory locally who died from accidental exposure to chemicals in their workplace. I'd prefer to specify products that are as green as possible and C2C (Cradle to Cradle) if at all possible. Linoleum, with it's natural ingredients is a nice alternative to sheet vinyl products, but yes, you do have the embodied energy to consider since the last I heard they are all manufactured overseas (pollution from transportation, etc.) Also, including recycled content into vinyl products often creates more pollution than it saves, and it doesn't become any less toxic to work with to my knowledge. Take for example vinyl siding that is currently on the market - there is no economical and ecological way to recycle the miles of vinyl that spec builders are putting on houses - it all goes into the landfill as soon as it wears out in 10-15years. And I've been there when they've ripped VCT out of hospitals and watched it go directly into a dumpster.


DLavery, my image comment was in terms of hospitals' use of VCT (so that you would know where to go looking for it if you wanted to see examples in use). Typically in high traffic image areas like the main corridors, nicer hospitals and healthcare facilities will have a high end institutional carpet, terrazzo, or other finish. VCT is relegated to the back corridors - shipping, receiving, staff areas, etc. You may also find a lot of VCT in schools, cafeterias, and so on. (You were saying you wanted to be able to go and see some). The other thing to think about is that with VCT, subfloor prep is critical as every little imperfection telegraphs through. I've known some people who have put commercial VCT in their homes - mostly kitchens. Some have loved it, and some have hated it . . . I have a friend who put commercial VCT down in their light traffic pool house/bath/garden shed many years ago and it still looks fine. They drive a riding lawn mower on it, so . . . I don't think durability is an issue at all - it's more of how much work it will be to maintain the look you want - polished, etc.

Rous, the waiting till the kids move out comment has to do with both the fact that kids are hard on almost everything in the house and our desire to adopt a somewhat different lifestyle when they are no longer here full time. We bought a green bean house - the type of thing that you know is good for you. It's big enough to house us, five kids and my in-laws (in their own apartment) without being too big. It requires only routine maintenance. It's located in a good neighborhood on a cul-de-sac. It's close to things. But nobody ever left a dinner party and remarked to their spouse Damn, honey, those were some fine green beans they served! We'd prefer that our empty nester was something I designed, more modern and small enough that we could use that as an excuse not to have the kids living with us.

commercial VCT is cheap, really easy to install and pretty durable. My only problem with it is that, though it looks great at first, after a while dirt builds up in the seams so you will have a thin black line surrounding the individual tile. I don't think you can avoid this even with regular cleaning and buffing. Maybe if you have a darker tile it will not be as noticable. In short, though it functions well, it can only be just be good or, with skill, very good. Never great.

I have seen some great things done with sheet linoleum, all in the old days of course. They would inset other colors and shapes into the sheet like a flower or a crest. But that's a professional job.

Bearch - Makes sense. The way I read it, I thought you were commenting on durability. I have been in two new Ikeas (Dallas and SW of Chicago) and both have grey linoleum on the floors. Even though the stores are less than a year old, it seems to be holding up pretty well. However, they put it down in a building where I work a few years back and it looks terrible. They put in some pretty wild patterns and the seams are all pulling apart. I am going to chalk that up to a bad install which makes me think experience and references are important when looking for an installer.