Have you wished for a cheaper prefab?

Greg,

Your proposal is really exciting to see. I just noticed Live Modern's emblazoned mission: [em] Making Modernism Affordable[/em] --

Maybe if you want dialogue from potentially interested clients, it could be facilitated in a Wednesday night chat? Perhaps you could put out the word and limit conversation only to those who are interested to keep the conversation focused. That way you could have interested parties and yourself communicate without putting in too much time? --

Maybe if you don't want to invest too much time in creating a point of departure regarding floorplans, I think the Palo Alto has a great floorplan that would appeal to nearly every modernist and it's modular-friendly. However, I wonder how much problem varying lot sizes will have in a group plan even if the group accepts the design. --

As far as sweat equity is concerned, it should be stated and restated that buying a modular home is [em] nothing [/em] like building a home. I've been keeping up with the blogs and I don't see where our approach, at this point, has been more time consuming than others'. Okay, maybe with the Ikea stuff, but those things could be facilitated with the design. Now that I think about it, even buying a tract home involves many decisions about finish materials. I think when we stitch up the house, we'll have more work than others, [em] but that was our choice.[/em] --

Remember that the figure I listed above includes the delivery cost. I think the rough estimate is something like $5000 each truck from Provo to L.A. I also think that even though our house doesn't include the finish materials, we have included nice things like in-floor heat and on-demand water heater. I did a little math and I think [em] our [/em] cost is $69 s/f, when it is compared to what other modulars. (I subtracted the delivery cost and added our cost for the finish materials.) There would be even more cost savings if you were to contract 6 similar models from Irontown. This proposal is such a great idea and I do think it is flexible for those who do not want to do any of the stitch-up work themselves. Remember that you'd be dealing with a factory who almost always ships homes ready to move-in, including appliances. My request to leave those items out was unusual in their experience.

i know this may seem like a big wet blanket, but..

really, all of this could be done if we could just find a modular company that has an architect on staff that is even somewhat modernist in his/her approach to housing. i've mentioned before that some modular companies include a completely custom design (by a registered architect) in the price of the house. maybe if g-dog hooked up with a modular builder like these, as one of the architects they employ, fabprefab's problems would be solved. eh? really, if i were in the market for a modular home, i would just call around until i found a builder with an architect willing to listen to my ideas about housing, and implement them into a design. i'd bet that there are one or two out there somewhere that wouldn't mind too much starting a venture into this type of design. i know that yellowhammer building systems (in AL) readily took some very simple floorplan sketches of mine (similar to the palo alto, but 2 stories), and gave me a quote within a week. there was no argument about the style being so different from a typical modular house, or anything.

wouldn't it be nice to call a modular builder, and when they transferred you to their in-house architect, it was someone like g-dog or mark or __________ (other architects here)?

I'm very interested in something like this. I think someone else mentioned it, but those industrial prefab metal structures are very cheap. I've wondered about getting something like this and just residentializing it? for me I want open space, high ceilings, a large garage/workshop area, etc.

here's an example price:

40 feet wide x 16 feet high x 50 feet long. $9,670.00

I actually think they are pretty cool looking too and have some interesting curved colored skylights as an accessory.

they say the buildings are very easy to construct, no special tools/skills, with one bolt type being used throughout. they also say the buildings can be delivered within 2-3 weeks of order.

http://www.pioneersteel.com

Zach,

I don't know that modular home builders have an in-house architect. It's been my experience that modular home companies develop stock plans and from there they work with a draftsman. Also, I don't know of any modular home builder, beside the aforementioned, that will develop a custom plan in the western states at this cost. Maybe someone on the dwell boards could start a modular home manufacturing business? :cool:

I think that the sort of thing Greg is proposing would work with the current state of affairs. Sure, it's hypothetical, but it can be achieved sucessfully and easily if the right customers are on board. I also think that Greg's knowledge of this particular manufacturer's operation makes it more likely to work. To be honest, when we found out that we could purchase a custom modular home designed by Greg for such a low price, we thought we were getting away with murder. It seemed too good to be true. I started chronicling our building plans on this site because I couldn't believe that we would be doing this in southern california on our budget.

Maybe it's just that the wrong people are responding to this thread because none of us are currently looking for a low priced modern modular home. I would love to see other people find their dream home at a below-market price. I think it's worth the pursuit. Affordable housing is a nationwide issue, not just for us modernists. Everyone is always commenting how architects should be more responsible in creating affordable housing, so here it is.

Zac - that sounds great to me. Please, somebody make it happen and let me off the hook! I'll be the first one to say its not about the house - I think anybody could do this if they wanted to. But nobody is making it happen at this level. I just want to push the ball, get it rolling a bit.

Vortex - do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to [url href=http://www.livemodern.com/forums/dwell/dwelllabs/891917823724]this thread[/url] about using an inexpensive pre-engineered steel building to make a house.

This is an exciting idea, and I just had a couple of cents to add. I feel the greatest benefit of such a program would be the fact that a small group of people would get a semi-custom home design with some of their input, and some of others input. Right now, you have precious few modern modular homes on the market to choose from. Going this route allows the homeowner to have more of a input to the design while still affording some large part of the benefit of being manufactured (cost, planning). I can say from my experiences right now, as I am entering the finsihes stage of my new home, having a complete plan for finished laid out prior to construction would be a huge benefit. Count me in for such a proposition in a couple of years!

This has been a great thread to read. It has stimulated all kinds of thoughts in my mind about the idea of the affordable modern prefab home.

The first thing that came to mind is - if you remove one word from the premise posed, namely modern, what are current market costs and tricks do moderm manufacturers employ to keep costs down. From there, extrapolating costs to make the home modern should be very easy. Unfortunately, I think most of the changes required are going to jack up the cost. Manufactured homes aka double wides are very popular here in East Texas. I will look into costs and tricks to see if I can gleen anything from them.

The second thought concerned the Steel Arch homes raised by Vortex. I have done some renderings previously using arch homes. They do make a very cool modern looking house. You only need to look at the South African's house in Lethal Weapon II to see just how cool they can be, but there is a lot of work and cost required to finish them out.

Finally, I am consistently amazed at the cost of things on the west coast. YIKES. $100/sf gets you a decent custom in the design of your choice here in East Texas.

Mike

Wow, 24 hours without a new post and this thread is already falling down the list. Since this topic is so closely related to the founding concept of LiveModern, would it be possible to give it a more prominant position at the site. Perhaps give the idea its own page linked from the Welcome page for LiveModern with a version of Greg's proposal. This thread could be accessed from this page and maybe the page could include a poll to gage interest in various features and just which finishes and price would be considered acceptable. It is such a great idea, I would hate to see it die simply because not enough people checked-in between Jan. 12 and Jan 14 of 2005.

Jeff,

Your question elevated the topic all by itself. The site is set up to do that in several areas. Just keep talking.

Nevertheless, I will be doing some work on the LiveModern front page this week, and could include a link there for a special page devoted to the proposal. I just don't have time to set up that special page. As for polls, these can be conducted in the topic itself (as the owner of the topic, Greg can start them). If there is enough interest in a particular poll question that has broad applicability to everyone, then we can replace the current "What do you think?" poll.

Marshall

Yeah, but I'd hate to have to come in here every so often and bump the topic. My sense is that lots of people (who may or may not find Greg's proposal interesting) visit LiveModern for a short time, and then move on. There may be 5-6 or 10-20 folks out there who would be seriously interested in the proposal, but they each may visit once over the next 6 months. We need to catch them when they first stop by.

That being said, I think your strategy is a good one.

Jeff, Marshall - I think it will float or sink on its own merit. It is linked from Fabprefab, and in the forums here which is ok for now. If it starts to sink away I will add info or just a post to punt it back to the top. It will take some time - a dozen people are not going to sign up in a week. I'll create an independent page for it here at some point, perhaps when the next draft of the proposal is called for. I can give it page on my web site later if it seems it has interest but needs a wider exposure to pick up the last participants. I don't want to ratchet it up quickly if it does not need to be. I don't want it to be hyped right before converting it to a rather private design process.

I have gotten email from a couple of people who are interested, if not yet committed to the idea. Not everybody is going to post here so it won't be obvious where it stands. When it appears that there is a group I'll poll them to see where they are located, their site status, in the interest of seeing how this works with the logistics. I don't know if a public poll would make sense yet. Do you think people would be even more willing to express interest via a poll than emailing me privately?

Marshall would know better than I, but, IMHO, everybody loves to be polled. The information received may be biased since those who would truely be interested would be a minority of the respondants, but if you include a question about willingness to pay, you may be able to get some great information about matters to consumers. Plus, I think it is about time for a new poll.

Frankly I am a bit surprised at the response to the poll regarding cost. There are about 500 respondents as of today and the trend is for most people wanting the lowest cost - below $75/sqft. I don't know if it is human nature for people to always want the lowest cost item they can get, or if this really reflects the means of the participants, what they think they can afford. Does this mean people are willing to trade off material expectations for lower cost? Does this mean prefab would make greater market penetration at this price level? Its hard to say.

under $75/sf 35% (176)

$75-$100/sf 28% (141)

$100-$125/sf 17% (88 )

$125-$150/sf 8% (41)

$150-$175/sf 3% (19)

$175-$200/sf 2% (11)

$200-$225/sf 1% (7)

$225-$250/sf 2% (10)

over $250/sf 0% (4)

Lavardera,

I can speak only for myself and my friends and acquintances who are interested in modern design. We have had lots of serious discussion about starting to develop some modern affordable housing. We range in age from 24 - 38 and for the most part $100 s.f. is the sweet spot and for several of us who are first time buyers, its the upper end that we can afford (not including land). Personally, my budget for the house this spring is $60s.f. (1400s.f. living; 700s.f. garage/studio) I will have to put in a lot of sweat equity and material tradeoffs to make it. A friend of mine was able to build his place (using SIPs) for around $40s.f. going with the least expensive everything and doing a lot of work.

So the numbers on the poll don't seem to off for me. It certainly reflects my means and a majority of the people I network with. Using coldwell banker's 2004 average sale price for our area, $207,321 for a 2200s.f. home I came up with $94/s.f. including land. Land around here is in the $4-6/s.f. range. Median home price for our area is $125,700 as of Q2 2004.

I just wish that I was one of the 21 people who are able to say that $200+ is affordable. What a house I could build!

I would like more details on the 40/sqft project using SIPS. I have not been able to figure out how to affordably work them in. I have a lot of wall space in my loft plan (probably the biggest problem), and was hoping to get in around 55-60/sft stick built. 40 is awesome!

DG - your feedback is very good to hear. I'd like to say, hey, lets push the target cost on this proposal down to 60-75 $/sqft. But I don't know if that would be realistic. But if a group of people who had that as a goal stepped up then we could go into it with this on the agenda. The info that Sarah has offered suggests that 75$/sqft may be possible (assuming transport distance and site issues equal) After looking at the poll it raises the question: Is the 100$/sqft number in this proposal keeping away a large number of people who are interested in 75 or less?

I am also curious about the 40$/sqft sips project. Is there some reason you can not recreate his method? Do you not have the opportunity to add as much sweat as your friend?

I think lots of people taking the poll are basing their vote on housing values in thier areas. Here in Dallas, in what are considered nice neighborhoods built in the 1950s, for a 3-4 BR 2 bath, 1800-2400 sq. ft. house, you can expect to pay $60-$80 per sq. ft. for the house, land worth roughly $30 per sq. ft. So a 2000 sq. ft. house would sell for $200,000 (+/- $30,000) with land making up about $60,000-$80,000 of the total. Up in the new suburbs, the big developers are selling 2,600 sq. ft. houses for $200,000-$230,000. This is roughly $80 per sq. ft. (including land!). So if friends in your income group are all getting about the same size and quality houses for $80-$100 per sq. ft. including land, it seems reasonable that a modern styled house should be in the same ballpark.

I also know that in higher rent parts of town, new houses are going up and selling for $120 per sq. ft. These are mostly made by smaller builders either on spec or for clients who have picked 4000-5000 sq. ft. plans out of the grocery story catalogs. I have a feeling these are finished out a lot nicer (well, more expensively) than the standard developer's houses.

I think that anytime you do something more custom and on a smaller scale, it is going to cost more. I just do not think people have that figured out yet.

Greg,

I think if you hit the around the $65-$75 mark for a basic unit, and give some way to individualize them a bit which could make them hit the $80-$100 point I think you could really move them. I know that is much easier said than done. Mainly, I think this figure makes it affordable for the younger set who is generally more intuned to 'design' yet don't have the means to necessarily pay for how it is traditionally delivered and it would also appeal as a second home or downsize idea for empty nesters ala the Honda Element's appeal to the older demographic than it was intended for. The younder group doesn't carry a bunch of baggage that I think the older set has about housing in general. I know that is a very gross generalization, but we're talking about a generation weened on marketing models of the Dells and super-tuned civics. It just seems to me that a mass customized house is the next step and there-in lies the possibility and the pitfall. It needs to be marketed as a product that happens to be a house not a house that happens to be a product. I think this is the way to sell your idea successfully, but ultimately as an architect it scares the crap out of me to take away that last little bit of pretense that we have about the home today and start down the path of commodifying the 'home' more so than it already is. But in the interest of furthering discussion...

I know that a lot of this idea is about probing the market to understand it. I wonder if there needs to be a couple of meta-steps before signing up a few people to test it out in any old market. Perhaps if the approach was taken to select a few markets that have the most conducive environment for this type of product. What is the expansion pattern of other businesses that cater to 'design'. Perhaps look at places most mentioned in cool town initiatives, places that are seriously courting the knowledge workers then filter again for land prices and where the regulatory climate is good. Start looking for manufactures in the area that are open to the idea because you used the above market research to sell them on the idea that thier market is the likely one to want such a product. Then start pitching to the public in those markets. Use nontraditional media, get stories written about your idea. Work with non-profit housing agencies to meet their agenda for affordable housing, etc. This represents a whole lot of work, a hell of a lot more than designing and producing CD's.

As for the $40 sip project, the reason i'm not at that cost point is that I'm in a flood zone and I'm just not that cheap. I can't stand vinyl anything, I like nice fixtures and I don't have summers to work on the house. To hit $40/s.f., he stayed on module with his simple design, was careful about the doors and window selection placement, salvaged a ton of materials, lots of used fixtures, etc.

I'd like to point out a few things regarding the poll. While 35% would like a house for $75/sq.ft., 45% fall in the $75-$125 range. In addition, of that 35%, some are undoubtedly thinking Gee, I wish there was an under $50/sq.ft. category. Unless they are pretty handy, these folks are not being realistic. It seems that their are certainly plenty of folks out there who would consider a modern home for prices from $65-$125/ sq.ft. But there is a big condition on this...

Everyone polled has some idea of the quality they expect in the house for the number they gave. Certainly, those that are willing to pay over $125 per sq.ft. are not expecting Formica countertops and vinyl flooring. Say someone who was at the Dwell Home Open House in NC thought they could get excited about that level of quality and that it would be worth $100 per sq.ft. to them. Now lets say that level of quality would cost $125/sq.ft. We still miss the mark. The same thing could happen at lower preices and levels of quality.

For me, here is the interesting question: For every level of cost, how closely can the quality level match people's expectations. If you can build for $120 per sq. ft. but people are only willing to pay $100 for it or if you build it for $85 and people are only willing to pay $75, then you still have not solved the problem.

I think we need more information.

DG - the idea right now is not to move them, but just get some people on board to develop one common design. I think you are dead on with a strategy to learn more and make a start. But all that takes time, and money, all justified by developing a product. But I don't want to go down that road with this. The idea here is to bypass all that research and market preparation by connecting with a group of people who have roughly similar needs. And its entirely possible that this just can't come together, but we might learn something.

Greg.

I think you are right on the money with this. There's ton of energy and resources right here in Austin for this kind of thing and I'd love to find someone interested in pursuing exactly what you are thinking about.

Really it is a question of leveraging existing technology in a brutally efficient manner. Automated processes are only going to work if you've got a straightforward attitude towards them and don't fetishize the design. To a large extent I think you also need to leverage the power of 3D modelling with a constructive head on your shoulders, as opposed to focusing on say cool renderings of a project

Look forward to hearing what comes of this post and I'd be happy to be contacted off list by anyone interested in really jumping into this. I shoot rapid prototyping files off to firms around the world and I can't see any reason why you can't do the same with an efficiently planned prefab that integrates existing technology with digital files.

Sincerely,

Jonathan

Universal Joint Design Associates:
Full Service Design and Construction

Jonathan Chertok. Principal
AIA Design Associate
Austin, Texas 1 512 407 9628

www.universaljointdesign.com

I put $75-100 but I could go upto $125-150 max. If it said for less then $75 you get Formica counters, nylon carpet, vinyl floors, and other less expensive fixtures that would give us more info to truly say that is what we want for our pre-fab home. Then you go up from there like $200+ you get wood and tile floors, slab stoned counters, expensive lighting and bathroom fixtures, solid wood doors and so on. You get the point.

My point is that you would get a more acurate survey. But still cost vary arcoss the country.

Being a young buyer/builder in the bay area, I could not go over $120 per square foot based on my income and the fact that I am in the bay area, but that doesnt mean I want to go up to $120 either.

I would gladly go for a home built for $80-$100 with lower quality finishes and just save and upgrade over time. I dont need to buy a freaking perfect house at 29. I would love to buy a home and replace the carpeting with wood or bamboo 5 years later, upgrade counters to stone or tile a couple more years...I'm surprised more people havent mentioned the fact that owning a home is a process. Are most of the viewers of this thread attempting to buy a home that is perfect from the start?

Maybe I just grew up in a unique home, but after 25 years, my parents are still updating their home, and really, they are doing it at the right time. No more kids, getting ready to retire...the house is really coming together when they will have the most ability to appreciate it. That's what I am striving for.

I am also hoping to install solar. Is it possible to include this from any manufacturer, or is solar a separate deal unto itself?

attatt, I agree with your take - growing into your house, refinishing and adapting it as your life changes makes a lot of sense.


California definitely seems to have an advantage for this as the labor differential between CA and the factory all contributes to making a prefab a good value.

I think attatt has hit on an important point here. In my view, in order for the house to be affordable it's obviously critical to firmly draw the line on what type of finishing the home comes with. Keep the finish very modest with the thought that the house is a work in progress and that it will be slowly improved and upgraded by the owner in the future. And I'm sure there are many things that could be done to improve or enhance existing features commonly found in low cost homes. Like I've been reading about inexpensive concrete floors with geometric grooves cut in it along with colorful staining and polishing (simulating tile floors). Or instead of covering ducting and conduits and even some plumbing (code allowing), leave them exposed in an tasteful way, with the thought that the owner(s) will deal with them in whatever way they choose later. There's a zillion things that can be done on the interior to save money using creative workarounds.

Also, the basic design could be prepared and pre-planned for future improvements and expansion. In the case of the slab floor for instance, you could have the hoses for a radiative system put into place, but hold off on installing the radiative heating system until much later. If a second floor is desired in the future, but for now a vaulted ceiling will suffice, then leave the space for it to be expanded on later. Or add and configure a three car garage with the thought that half of it will be used for a future expansion, while installing any necessary utilities through the garage slab ahead of time. That sort of thing.

And another very important reason that a minimally finished home appeals to me, is that it gives the owner time to live in the home and very carefully consider exactly how he or she wants to configure the house. It also allows them to financially recover somewhat as they plan their future improvements. I've seen so many people go through the homebuilding process and when it comes to finishing details and last minute adjustments, it's always an incredibly chaotic, stressful and often very expensive process. All the decisions have to be made rapidly and usually cannot be reversed once they are decided upon. So often what happens is that as the home is coming together and as the owner(s) are starting to see the actual interior and exterior shape and structure arise, they start changing their minds and/or are suddenly confronted with significant design and/or finish changes (due to logical and/or logistical oversights in the base plan) where they have to quickly make their minds up. And then later there is regret because they just didn't know enough at that chaotic point in time to make the right decision, so they end up either living with a hasty mistake or paying even more to correct it later. Plus working at your own pace allows you the luxury to shop for new/used/surplus/salvage bargains for virtually everything you need. Allowing you to get precisely what you want at the best price possible.

So I think minimal finish, designed expandability, and creative moneysaving usage of low cost building materials and techniques is the way to go...including a cheap steel building!

This is probably a workable strategy, but there is one important factor to consider: the mortgage companies.

One problem with the unfinished house is that it has to be finished enough that a bank will feel comfortable that if they foreclose, they will be able to sell the house quickly and get the money they are due. Right now, I am a bit worried that the bank will see that our house is scheduled to have linoleum floors (although I just found out that bamboo is possibly cheaper, so who knows) and it has no built in coat closets.

I had wanted to do the painting, and some other stuff, in the house myself, but banks won't make the last payment to the builder until the house is 100% complete. Letting me do stuff makes builders nervous because if I drop the ball, they lose out.

I disagree here. I think a key reason for building from scratch is to get something close to what you want. I think saving cost on materials is pretty straightforward so I'd prefer to see some thought around saving costs in other ways, e.g., pre-plumbing, pre-electrical, ease of assembly, lots done at the factory, controlled design/planning costs, etc. I really think FlatPak is onto something if the basic costs could come down somewhat. I think they've dones a nice job on providing pick-and-choose finishing which you can make aesthetic and cost tradeoffs. And it seems that the panel-based structures should be able to come down in cost and be easy to assemble.

I think the process I am proposing will have some flexibility. Once the design is priced with a base selection of finishes, the group participating would have the option of deleting finishes and/or cabinetry as the Sages have; or optioning up to more expensive finishes or heating systems. This is something that is already part of the factory's process as they have shown us working with Sara and David. Again, we are trying to take advantage of what they are already doing.

The discussion here always seems to tend towards conceiving one good solution, but the world is too messy for that! Everybody will have different goals as to where their compromises and splurges will be. This is not where we need to innovate. The innovation is in coming together and agreeing to be flexible on the issues that allow us to move forward and take advantage of what is already in place: a process that can take a common plan to a group of houses in a range of final finish and fit-out solutions.

Can I begin the conversation regarding what are viable design considerations architecturally? Since I am an outsider to the technical design aspect I am very curious to know what is achievable considering the cost savings that are being sought.

Is a 2 story house conceivable? I would think that based on the fact that it's just 2 boxes stacked, it wouldnt cost more in the factory sense, but the cost of a crane might be too high, offsetting other savings. The thing is, there are a lot of narrow and steep lots left in most developed areas, and a multi-story house would probably net the best living arrangements.

Is the idea of a 3 car garage, expandable into living space for future use a possibility as mentioned above? Could the house be fabricated so that at a later date, one wall could be inserted and another knocked down without having to hire a contractor, unless the owner absolutely doesnt want to do any work on their own?

The idea of preset mechanisms for future addition of other units or walls is a fascinating idea to me. You cant exactly build a house out of Legos, but I would love to be able to decide I am ready to add a game room 10 years down the road, contact the fabricator for a shipment of walls, and just fasten them in place myself. I realize I am willing to do a lot more work than the average owner, but it seems possible to save money in the long run by buying standard sized walls and even hiring someone to just place them compared to building a new room and knocking down walls or building doorways where a structural load might be balanced.

At least one of the people who has emailed me was specifically interested in a two story design for a relatively narrow lot. Its hard to quantify at this point the impact of two stories. Yes you add a crane, but you can cut your foundation footprint in half. There are trade offs there.

As far as a scheme for future additions - that can be done. I had proposed a two module scheme, but if all agreed it was part of the agenda we could look at it as a future 3rd module and design with strategies to allow it to be added later.