kitchen manufacturer??

In the September 2005 Dwell, there was an EXPO Design Center insert. On the second page of the insert, there is an image of a kitchen. Does anybody know who the manufacturer is?

Thanks,
Josh

I think I dumped the insert, but have you seen the Dinovo line they're now carrying? I'm going to be pricing it for a project I'm currently working on. The general estimate runs $500/lf. Beautifully made Itlian cabinets with great hardware. The nearly silent, self-closing drawers have that distinctive European glide, like Boffi and Arclinea and Bulthaup.

John[email]johnfortney@yahoo.com[/email]

no, I haven't seen the Dinovo. I do not live close to an Expo center and their website is not updated with any kitchen info.

I figured that if it is a common manufacturer, I could go elsewhere. Anybody else?

Ikea actually has a few modern looking kitchen cabinetry that is of decent quality. The website has photos. they did my kitchen and two bathrooms in white high gloss. about $170/lf

We are importing cabinets from China, The designer is from France (Pianor) and the Manufacturer is Canbo, their price is close to Ikea but with much higher quality. They use all Blum Blumotion hardware and hinges, some are ferrari. The laminates are also German on the laminated stuff. Cabinets are very high quality thick and solid MDF and plywood, and are built green so no-offgassing. They also do back-splashes and countertops.

www.pianor.com

If you can get someone who knows fluent Chinese you can get a really high-end European kitchen for near Ikea prices, not including import cost. Takes a lot of leg work on your own and import knowledge, but those out there with the time and skills could get a sweet kitchen. Right now I am crazy busy so I don't have time to help others import, but it is a sweet deal. Oh, and you can haggle on prices.

Right on, Jasper!

What's cooler than sweatshops!?!

love the floor.

Common misconception. I travel to China a lot as my wife's family still lives there and run a very large textile company there. So when we picked manufacturers we toured their facilities and met with workers. It is FAR from sweatshop conditions.

Take for example my father in law's company. He grew up during the cultural revolution and was from a small town and suffered during the famines that were going on during that time. He tells stories of eating dirt just to have something in his stomach. But through determination and changes that happened during the late 80's he was able to start his own company. Now a massive entity. He now brings people from his home town and trains them in the business. He provides all his employees housing and lunch and dinner. They make slightly above average salary since he wants to keep employees (hard since the culture there does not have a lot of company loyalty). Plus like Europe China has a ton of mandatory holiday time off. I think most American's would kill to work for a company like that, especially since there is no such thing a mandatory vacation in the US. Last Christmas when we went they had a big Christmas party and he gave out tons of TV's, washing machines, electronics, and thousands of dollars in cash. It was crazy, I have never seen anything like it.

Sweatshops in China are illegal just like in the US, US has sweatshops still too. There are probably still a lot more in China because of terrible corruption there but in general if you are dealing with a large company, especially one working with foreigners, they are not likely to have sweatshop labor (more likely to be found in small rural companies, or crappy labor companies(mine work)). The way the market is in China, competition is too fierce to have a lot of sweatshops, since you would lose all your employees in the blink of an eye. My father in law has a huge problem keeping employees even with as well he he treats his, not because they are going to other companies, but because it is so easy to start your own business now, so everybody learns enough of the business to compete then leaves to start their own company, and many are getting rich doing it.

I have traveled all over China, from North to South, East to West in both extremely rural areas to most the major cities. I have not seen a single sweat shop yet. I have seen some abject poverty there that is horribly sad (rural China is suffering) but it has been poor farmers and rural area dwellers. China is far from a Panacea, the government is horrible and oppressive and makes me sick, corruption is out of control, and the mad materialistic chase for riches over there has many people screwing each other over for a quick buck, development is out of control (many times at the expense of the poor), and there is still a lot of political and religious persecution. But it is a huge country with a LOT of people, and there are many good people that have started good businesses that are trying to help a lot of other people have a better life so you can't just discount all Chinese companies as evil sweatshops, just like I have met some police and government people that are very nice and not corrupt and really are want China to change for the better.

In about 10 years China will probably have better working conditions than most US companies, I mean look at how many people are getting screwed here working 50-60 hour work weeks (China's average employee work week is 40 hours for government run business, 45 for private companies, 5 hours a week less than the US average) with little to no vacation time(absolute min in China is 3 weeks), horrid health benefits (hospitals and such in China are scary, but no insurance there, so healthcare is very cheap), and shaky job security(many workers in government run jobs there have guaranteed jobs for life with great retirement plans, private companies are at-will employments just like here).

anyway that is my way off-topic rant

Plain and simple...if they're cheaper than ikea and their materials are better, they're paying their workers poorly. But you get your fancy kitchen for cheap so who cares.

-Helga.

The world would be a better place if everyone made a good living, but wishing it don't make it so. And refusing to buy the products produced by folks who don't get paid a lot doesn't do them any favors, it just puts them out of work.

So Pianor is cheaper? but then there is the import cost. so tack that on. then who will install it? And will they know how to use this chinese product and be able to read the installation manual? how much will they charge? what if a hinge or two are missing from the order...when will you get a new part?

Pianor sounds great but the logistical hurdles and hidden cots may make IKEA or other local company a better choice. the cabinet installers for IKEA have been installing for a decade. they do it everyday and know every trick to get it done quickly and cheaply. they installed my kitchen and two bathrooms in a day for $1800. there were two hinges missing from the order and I just drove to IKEA and picked up the hinges in less than an hour.

Not to deter you in the least. I am just playing the devil's advocate.

Actually our Pianor kitchen was about $800 more than Ikea, not including import costs, but that does include some deep discounts, about 35% off, that we were able to negotiate. My wife's family has some of their business offices in the same area as Pianor and the manufacturing (done by Canbo) is close by. My wife does import for clothing company here in the US so she knows that side very well and our installer knows Chinese. We were looking for an alternative to the 20-50k price quotes we got from companies like Scavolini (whom I also think is great!), Boffi, and Poggenpohl. We couldn't find anything in the US with their quality under those prices. Ikea looked good but some of the stuff we were worried about quality. So when we were in China we toured a bunch of companies and I came up with a short list and we interviewed each one till we had what I felt was the cream of the crop. Pianor, Debao, Optima, and Top Kitchen.

I don't recommend them for the faint of heart, but to a very limited few who make be able to make this work. Originally I was going to help people import and I have some other forums posts with some more detail on that but I think I probably wont have the time I thought (I work in movie SFX so I am on a busy production schedule), but am willing to point people in the right direction.

Our kitchen is almost done being manufactured, and we have import already set up. I will let everyone knows how it goes once everything arrives and gets installed. I have no affiliation with Pianor, in fact I know some other good companies too, I just like a lot of the modern furniture that is made in China for the Asian market but never sees the light of day in the US.

As far as the whole sweatshop thing. I have personally toured the places I recommend and I have bought from. They are NOT sweat shops, and I would be morally opposed to dealing with any company that abuses it's employees. I am sure the textiles (used in high-end European, Asian, and US clothes) manufactured by my wife's family are a lot cheaper than those manufactured in the US and in Europe, but their company treats it's employees better than ANY company I know of, if you read my above post I think most would agree. The labor employees live at an above middle class level, and the non-labor live at a very wealthy level. People tend to forget the cost of living in China is 1/8th what it is here in the US. In the cities nobody lived in big houses until foreigners came in demanding big homes in suburbs and then it caught on with wealthy Chinese since they thought what must be good for us is good for them. I even go as far to pick companies that are environmentally friendly, since environmentalism is more of a problem in China than sweat shops with big companies.

You have to remember that a lot of these companies are not exporting to the US, they are catering to a demanding local market. I am handling the export on my own. Pianor does export around Asia and I do believe in Europe too, but that is because Pianor is french owned (I doubt too many people would take kindly to a french company running a sweatshop). Pianor is just teamed up with Canbo which is a really good appliance manufacturer that caters to the Asian market. We went with Pianor over some of the other good companies we found (some of whom where a lot more expensive) because they were great people to work with, our dealer gave us her personal cell phone number and we often email back and forth with her. They were very open and honest and willing to help us out as much as possible. They were not as snooty as some of the more costly Chinese manufacturers.

Also European imports and US imports are cheaper in China than here in the US. You can buy US products cheaper in China than you can at your local home depot!

Helga, have you even been to China, have you toured manufacturers there? I admit I was pretty jaded the first time I went, but after traveling all over China and meeting so many wonderful people there I have a completely different attitude. I have toured dozens on companies there and have seen hundreds of manufacturers and I have yet to see a single sweat shop. I also know that Chinese products made for the Asian market are often much much higher quality the most the swill that gets imported to the US. I for one want to see and open and free China so I will support any company that runs itself in a respectful manner.

Do you also feel that everyone should stop buying bamboo floors? Those come from China too. Just because a country is a developing nation, has low cost of living, and makes things cheaper than the US doesn't mean that every company there is a sweatshop.

Anyone interested in some of my trips to China can check out my web sites. These are just a small touristy fraction of the places I have been, but they do show some of the beauty that is there and I think most will be surprised.
http://homepage.mac.com/jjasper/china/
http://homepage.mac.com/jjasper/china2/
http://homepage.mac.com/jjasper/china3/
http://homepage.mac.com/jjasper/china4/china4.html

look for a small 1-2 man cabinet shop in your area. talk to them about your ideas and ask how you can save some cash. you would be amazed at how creative we can be... man, think local if you can. or would you rather give your work to china? if so why?

I agree if you can get it local, get good quality, have it look nice and get it at a good price it will be a lot easier/better than importing. We will probably do that for our bathroom cabinets if I can actually find someone local that can build what I want and not have it cost me tens of thousands of dollars.

But I don't see why everyone bags on getting something imported from China, it is no different then importing from Italy or Germany. We are doing the exact same process pretty much that we were going through with Scavolini.

I totally agree with you jjasper, what is the difference if you buy from Germany, Italy or China it is still all the same...IMPORTING. I personally do not have anything against it, I want the best i can get at a fair price, and i think its not the kitchen manufacturers of high end cabinetry that are weighing down America, for that you can just look at your local Walmart. How do yo think they can give you the lowest prices, not by selling stuff made in the USA thats for sure.
Now having said that...
I think Ian does have a point though, if one can find a local craftsman to do the work they like then why not. Although most locals I have looked at could not come close to the variety and quality that a Boffi or similar manufacturers do. That Euro stuff is fairly specialized, I am now looking at the new line from Kraftmaid, they seem to be onto something, i have not speced out any prices but I bet it will be in between the 2 great divides. (Boffi/Ikea).
BTW, Ian does have some nice stuff on his site, and for what it's worth, I have not found anyone who is as good that can be reasonable with pricing. Manhatten seems to make everything too expensive. OK enuff babble.

Franco


http://www.francovogt.com