No Primer on new walls?

Any input on this out there? My gut says don't let it happen, as well as several people urged us not to either. Our builder commented they don't think they are going to do a primer on our new drywall in our home. Is there any case in which this would be OK, we are using lots of bright and deep colors as well. Any thoughts would be great!

I don't think primer is a necessary step. your deep colors will probablt require 2 coats anyway.

primer would make more sense if you were doing colors that are single coat. primer is cheaper than pigmented paint.

I could be wrong on this. it's been a while since I painted new walls. hopefully I'll be doing the same in a few months.

paul schuster

Primer is a different formula than regular paint - depending on the product it may offer sealing qualities that you won't have with regular wall paint. That could protect your wall board from moisture depending on where it is. But if you use primer, and you will be coating with saturated colors, rather than fight to cover a coat of white primer you should have your paint store tint the primer to the same color as your walls - then you will get a jump on your coating.

I think that sounds like a lemme see what kind of slacking I can get away with on this job kind of statement.
I'm assuming you have smooth walls, not those lovely textured ones that have become the standard in this world of cheap and lazy home building.

You have a builder which leads me to believe you contracted the building of a home as a package deal. Is priming and painting part of your contract? Why does he think he isn't going to prime? Does this mean he's going to leave you with your finished home and bare drywall?

Ask a professional painter what he thinks about priming (or not) new drywall.

It needs to be primed. Primer seals the paper on the surface of the drywall and evens out the texture.

If you know what paint colors you're going to use, then by all means DO use a tinted primer. If you're painting over already white-primed walls then it really does't matter if the primer is tinted or not, IME. Having done it both ways, I've found that you'll end up with just as many coats, whether it be primer or paint. Deep and bright colors ARE going to need more than two coats in almost every case, even with high quality paints like Benjamin Moore. If you're rolling it on, four-plus coat colors are not unusual when you're talking about brights or anything in the red, orange or yellow family.

A lot of paints available today are fine with one coat for a large percentage of their colors.

But a flat primer is often still needed to prevent photographing on drywall that hasn't been skimcoated.

If your walls are skimcoated, you should be fine, but otherwise, I'd prime just to prevent photographing.

Thanks for the input so far, which, is kind of tugging me in all different directions! To clarify. Yes, the builder is by contract required to paint our walls. Most of the colors are deeper or bright colors. The drywall is finished and sanded, so, we have bands and spots all over where the compound has been applied. It is a very smooth finish and a nice job but I would hate to have someone try to shortcut and be unhappy everytime the sun shines on our walls, we will have alot of it! I believe it is a semi gloss going on the walls too.

We have asked a pro and he said at all costs DO NOT let them not put a primer coat on, and that the paint will not adhere to the drywall properly without doing so and it will compromise the wear and look of the job. I actually had another pro tell me he uses more primer than regular paint on the job and that it is the most important step in the process. So, for the most part, we have been told we must use a primer on new drywall, this is not a cookie cutter, in and out project. I guess we will see what happens. Thanks again for your input so far on this.

:wacko:

Whether true or not, I had a painter tell me that on new drywall, the higher the gloss, the more important primer is as the stuff that makes the paint glossy will unevenly and disproportionately soak into the drywall. This would result in an uneven gloss level. But again, if you tint the primer, then this wouldn't lead to any extra coats of paint, but there might be more wasted primer as the tinting would now allow a 1/2 can of left over primer to be used on the next room.

HEEEEEELLLLPPPPPP!!!!!!! Ok, we asked the builder yesterday and we were once again at a loss as to where to go with this situation without causing World War 3. We casually asked what kind of primer do they use and the guy (who didnt make the original comment about not using it) rambled on about primer being a big hoax for paint companies to make a profit and its an unessary product designed for them to fill their pockets and so on. So basically he painted a big conspiracy picture that everyone is in on.

Now this is coming from someone who we are paying a great deal of money to build us a true custom home. Plus, you cannot present them with concerns without looking like the bad guy and them carrying on and literally going on the defense and fighting mode which only puts added stress on us, so, we have to handle situations like this very carefully. By contract they are to paint every room in the home. The way they said they were so over the top particular and high end, we never dreamed it would mean no primer whatsoever, so, our bad for not getting specifics on this. They are never wrong! So its been super hard trying to hold our toungue because they sold us really hard when we were about to sign the contract on how they operate, we have been disappoited to say the least at how much they mislead us and how unsmoothly things have gone, actually the home should be complete according to the contract right now.

So, that was our answer on why they are not using it. Any help in how to deal with this would be great or what you would do in our shoes. We are not experts, and we hate to have to keep being like dad and trying to tell them how to do their job. However, we dont want to lay this kind of money out and be stuck with a poor job. I hate to sound dramatic but this project is just one drama after another and we are just plain tired of trying to make sure everyone is doing their job (which is the general contractors job!). We are trying to be as cool as possible because we are looking at having these people drag on for another year, however, we do not want to be taken advantage of either. Any input or thoughts might give me some much needed guidance. Again, we are at a loss at this point!!! We are toying with the thought of hiring a professional painter to come in and paint the primer if they will not, which is insane considering the money we have given these people. Help!

Not to ask something that will stress you out even more, but how are they going to handle the trim? Wood trim needs to be sanded, then primed, then sanded again (and then maybe even primed again) before you paint it (the primer will cause the grain to rise). Then it needs two coates of paint (most preferably with an oil-based paint). If the trim is MDF-based, then using an oil-based primer is a must. If the MDF trim is pre-primed, then the cut ends need to be primed with an oil-based primer. A water-based paint or primer can cause the MDF to swell.

As for your question, I would propose a compromise that they do one coat of tinted primer and one coat of tinted paint. The extra work and expense here is minimal. Personally, I would be willing to add that I would then pay them extra if any room needs another coat. Also, I would definitely search the internet or magazines like Fine Homebuilding for articles that support your case. At the very least, you can plead ignorance and that you only want to do what Bob Villa would do. You know, the paint companies may have an incentive to get you to prime (Wash, Rinse, Repeat), but the contractor has a strong incentive here too.

I assume from their comments that the wood trim in our home is going to be painted WITHOUT primer as well, since they feel its not necessary. Our biggest problem is how they freak out on us, we are talking when we calmly question something, and how to go about this. We have asked a few local pros and they said the primer in our case is more important than the paint itself seeing its brand new drywall. We got the same vibe that if it is a big money making scheme, why would contractors not see through it?!!!!
We were told DO NOT let them get away with it, again, trust me - we are spending waaaay above average for this home for our area to be built - we kind of have to hold them to the high standards they said they possessed and that we are paying for. We almost had two coats of a one coat product go on the outside until we stepped in, so we have trust issues at this point. Believe me, your comments are WELCOME, we will be more freaked out by not going into the situation with knowlege and advice! It will be a battle for sure, and probably ending up costing us more money!

Jeff,

You're builder's attitude is aggravating, to say the least. I personally would not put up with it. If you feel the walls need to be primed first, insist on it.

Are you carrying the construction loan or is the builder? If the latter, threaten to not close on the property if the job is not done right. For every day there is a delay in closing, it will cost the builder in terms of carrying costs and property taxes. Also, make sure all your punch list items are completed before closing, as you will have little bargaining power after you take occupancy.

I would suggest asking the contractor for the contact info for the person that will actually be doing the painting, as well as where they intend to purchase the paint. Take all of your concerns to those folks directly doing the work and listen to what they have to say. I'd find it hard to believe that the GC is going to be using some of his lackeys to do the actual work of prepping and painting the walls. If they are using their lackeys, then they have completely and totally mis-represented their quality workmanship, and you have greivances to settle with them, a'la $$$$$$ that you shouldn't be held responsible for. A quality paint job is not something any ole person can just throw themselves into, especially on new construction, and ESPECIALLY on smooth drywall. Primer is a MUST on any quality paint job, just ask any good painter. They aren't making any extra bucks off the primer, so why would they insist on using it. And hell it's not like primer costs more than good paint, so what is the big deal.

Also I surely hope the GC isn't intending on using an airless sprayer to apply the paint to your walls. If that is the case you may as well can him right now, because an airless sprayer is no way to put paint onto smooth drywall. It will look like all kinds of hell if that is what they intend.

Also like Rous suggested primer is a must for wood trim, especially if you are going with a gloss or semi-gloss oil based paint. Wood products (including the paper skins on drywall) have a grain and texture that needs to be properly sealed with primer and then sanded (which is not an uncommon thing to do to walls either, just so you know) before any final coats of paint are applied. There are no two ways about it. Insist on primer, or insist on the GC crediting you on the cost to hire your own painter to do it right.

Mark

You don't sound dramatic at all. My husband and I have gone - and continue to go - through these situations daily with all the contractors. Our experience has been the same as yours. Even though we've paid good money, we're the ones who have to hold everyone accountable. And please don't feel pressure to be an expert. That's what they're supposedly being paid for. Although, ironically, we all end up becoming experts because the builders don't know how to do what we ask and have very little motivation to learn new methods. (Seriously, our builder didn't even bother to read the instructions on the sealant for our concrete floors, and he ruined them. Now we're going to have to find a way to fix the mess he made and redo them ourselves.)

The bottom line is - it's your money. If you've done your research, and you want primer on your walls, then that's that. It doesn't matter if your builder agrees, or anyone else for that matter. The painters will come and go, but you'll be the one left to live within these walls. You're the one who'll be staring at them everyday, wishing you'd done it your way. If the primer isn't in the initial line budget that they presented to you, then it may cost you more, but at least you've caught it in time.

This is our fifth week living in our custom home, and I can honestly say that we have absolutely no regrets about the areas we pushed hard for. The regrets we do have, however, are a direct result of being given 'expert advice', wanting to do it differently, but did what was suggested so that we wouldn't cause a fuss.:wacko:

You don't have to tell me how aggravating it is, its just nice sometimes to hear we are not being overly critical or crazy people to work for! We do not want to be raked over the coals either. We are taking care of loan and the bank is doing inspections, so, they are the bad guy too in the builders eyes. We dont want to create a problem with our loan so the less they know of problems, the better at this point, plus we do not need to prolong our construction any further out than we are right now.

We are really trying to not step on anyone's toes or tell them their business, however, we are the ones that are footing the bill and calling the shots. Being business owners ourself, we are at a loss as to how they do theirs, its like dealing with the Incredible Hulk at times!!! We are not even pressing too much about the timeframe being way off, at this point we just want everything done with quality, which for this area is high for the most part, however, there have been several instances such as this that just have given us trust issues as a whole. Its juut a very delicate situation, one of which if we have them not complete the project, we will be in even more turmoil and stuck, so we are going to have to find a way to live with these people and keep them jovial and our sanity at the same time. Its getting harder and harder! Thanks for all of the input. We have pretty much made our minds up that primer will be put on, just the how and how big is the explosion over it is going to be the painful part!

Note: Someone mentioned about skimcoating. The walls are not going to be skimcoated.

Ok, just read other posts. Just to clear up. The GC is the one doing the painting, literally the people in charge, as their forte is interior finish work, so there are no ham and egg people coming in or a seperate painting person coming in to work on it. So, the people in charge are the go to people on this, which is why its so tricky. We are going to speak with the painting supplier, see what they say. We went there before with a few other things and got our head bit off by the GC for going over their heads!
The contract is set up with allowances, very vague as far as the actual act of doing the jobs, but we were sold on a high end custom home. From what we gather, a primer is needed for the job to be done properly, that is what should be done. I swear I could write a book. I agree with Jennifer's post, we feel as if we could probably build a home again ourself as we have had to do so much research on our own! Again, the joys of building a home!

Do you work for the GC or do they work for you? Are they paying you or are you paying them?

Sounds like they are cutting corners. They will cut corners if you allow them to. Your experience w/ them up to this point will probably tell you if they are or not. If your approach is submissive asking them politely they'll run with it and take advantage.

You are the customer. You are paying them. They are working for you. Be direct and FIRM. Ask an independent painting professional and then tell the GC what to do. Obviously you cannot get every last detail in writing of what is included in a new home. There are a few builders forums online that you can ask the same questions. Is priming new walls generally a part of a GC responsibility on delivering a new home? I'd say you will get a yes.

If they continue to say priming is not necessary and refuse to include doing it, make sure you get a WRITTEN and SIGNED statement from them saying that it isnt necessary so you have some recourse in the future if you run into problems.

Good luck!

Geez.
Welcome to construction, where babysitting is the most common job description. Next time you guys will GC it yourselves, right?

I would echo what Jennifer has said about the important thing being what YOU want. You are, after all, the customer.

You have to get over wanting the builder to like you and get over being nice. It's not about nice, it's about you paying lots of money to get what you want and it's a business transaction in which YOU are ultimately the boss. I'm not saying to make things get ugly, but be firm and clear, and make that be the end of the conversation.
It sounds like you've been intimidated and maybe suckered by their high and mighty we're the best attitude. You are certainly not the first to fall over this cliff but now that you are the wiser, stop letting it interfere with what you know to be right.

I think you can offer up two choices:
#1. They prime, period. IMO, this is implied by the painting portion of the contract because priming new drywall IS considered a TRADE STANDARD.
Remind him of this and offer up taking it to arbitration if necessary.
OR...
#2, as Mark suggests, make them credit you the cost of having someone else provide you with a paint job that conforms to trade standard. Solicit outside bids first and then take this to your builder so you'll have a point of reference on the amount you should be credited.

Do NOT negotiate or offer any leeway in terms of you do this much, I'll do this much WHEN IT's SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY IN THE CONTRACT, because this is just going to give him an excuse to revisit the issue and do a crappier job and it will just get worse and worse. Take my word for this. I learned the hard way.
I would also suggest NOT agreeing to them 'only' doing one coat of primer (even if it's tinted) and one coat of paint because with deep or highly saturated colors this is not going to be adequate coverage, and contractually, they should be held to providing you with a finshed paint job. (if you show me the palette I can probably guess pretty accurately) Don't give them another excuse to leave you with an unfinished job. Again, this is not what your contract implies.

My experience is that some guys play this game where they will try and get you to agree to them doing shoddy work by just throwing random crap out there and trying to tell you it's the right way. Then when it sucks they can say, yea, but the homeowner wanted it that way.
It's their sleazy way of getting out of doing a proper job. That your GC is apparently doing this is disgusting but not suprising.

On the other hand, you could just let them do it and see what happens, as long as you have a written prenup that says if it's defective or unsatisfactory in any way, it's a do over at builders expense, including but not limited to sanding everything and repainting.

Not to start a rant on contractors, as many of us have been in your spot before jeff, and hopefully you can work things out and get your job wrapped up with a minimum of hassles from here on out.


But your story reminds me so much of when we remodeled our bathroom... same hype followed by substandard work and lies, lies, lies for close to 6 months. When we finally had enough and threatened small claims court our GC said, and I quote, bring it on man, I make my living in court.

That was 5 years ago and he recently got thrown in jail for lying in court, among other things. Believe me, that had me on cloud nine for a long time, just knowing in these crazy times that there really is some justice in the world.

It's just these kinds of situations that makes the allure of pre-fab that much more attractive. Best of luck and hang in there... one day soon you'll be enjoying your new home and will have forgotten about all the hassles!

Ok,

I think we got everyone up in a lather over this. Probably because this kind of situation is so common in the new home business and most people put their heart and souls into them, its home after all! After doing all of our research, we have no doubt our walls will be primed, somehow. And yes, it will be yet another blowup! As commented earlier in another post, we really are not interested in worrying if they like us or not, its a matter of how much strain we have to put ourselves through for months to come in living with them. Its not like dealing with a sensible person, put it to you this way. Most business people would try to at least compromise before ranting and raving, this is not the case here. We called meetings, preached our feelings, did ranting ourself out of pure frustration and just walked away at times it got so heated. Then, it all blows over with them until the next situation and you could meet a different person the next time. We had several people vow they would not come back to work around these people anymore so its been fun let me tell you. The sad thing is the house is really turning out beautiful, even though it feels as if we are building alot of it ourself and its nonstop drama holding it all together!! Thanks so much for the primer input, it honestly did help us.

To get this thread back on track- (and as an Architect/GC)- Prime new drywall. Period. Always.
You'll get a smoother more durable finish. It will eliminate (or minimize) the surface finish differences between the seam/mud areas and paper area. Skipping primer is a shortcut. And it will result in a less desirable finish. Primer is not a scam.
It's a part of every paint spec and is a standard practice.
There's really no option and you should insist that it is done.

Not that anybody ever really uses a paint waranty, but the paint manufacturer's recommendation needs to be followed if you want to maintain your waranty. I do not know of a manufacturer that doesn't require a primer.

If this guy is so hot on not using a primer and you are willing to indulge him, ask to se a couple of projects where he did the same as he is recommending to you. Make visits only to houses that have colors at the same saturation level you intend. One should be recently done (within the last year) and the other 3-5 years down the road. Ask them if you can bring along a pocket knife to scrape off the paint in an unobtrusive area to verify the application method. Also, ask if you can bring along a shop light so that you can simulate a variety of lighting conditions. Then go ahead and do the job the right way.

In twenty some years I have never heard of a reputable contractor making such a claim and never have seen a job done any other way that didn't look awful under certain lighting conditions.

The idea that bare drywall doesn't need primer is total bollocks. You now know what an idiot or what a crook your builder is. Sorry.

Bare drywall face paper has a different porosity than the joint compound. Primer equalizes the porosity so that the finsh paint takes up evenly.

Given that your builder will also be your painter, you should now be paying careful attention to his details since he seems unlikely to. The sanded walls should be vacuumed thoroughly before priming. If the surface is not free of joint compound dust, the primer will not bond well. The next time you pull your taped-up Britney Spears poster of the wall it may take paint with it.

There are many purpose-made primers for bare drywall and existing painted surfaces. For drywall, you can also use a flash coat product like USG's First Coat. This is essentially a primer paint with the same filler that is joint compound. OR, it's like thinned-down joint compound. It is an ideal substrate for any finish but is particularly good for gloss paints and Venetian-type plasters. For existing painted walls, there is no better primer than Ben Moore Fresh Start.

BTW, some paint colors need a pure white primer color in order to show their true color. Even opaque paints rely on some reflectivity from the primer. Most paints are formulated to go over white primer. I've tinted primer before and ended up with finish colors that were just a bit off.