The first blog I saw on LiveModern was the sage blog. Right around the time your first sketches for them were posted, I started reading that blog. I was so impressed, and excited. Am I correct in thinking that their house was built for < $100/sq. ft.? That may not be affordable in Thailand, but it seems pretty good to a guy living in Colorado.

it had to be Available before it was affordable!

Affordability is a relative term. No matter what the price point there are going to be people who can not afford it and they will be disappointed. And as experience shows early in the development of products this can be a high percentage of the people interested in modern houses.

Availability is a much clearer idea. Either a product is offered, or it is not. The question of what you can afford comes after that.

All that considered the Sage House will be probably between 90-100$/sqft and I think that is affordable to a high percentage of people, and a good value at that.

I'll put it this way: We are getting a very modern 1446 sf furnished home on a nice 1/3 acre in Los Angeles County for a grand total of around $325,000 (land, structure, permits, utilities, everything).

That may not sound like a great deal for someone in a cooler market, but it's a very good deal for L.A. Appraisal value will be upwards of $425k as soon as it's done.

But the sweat equity we're putting into it? I've lost probably ten pounds just this last month! If I was to put a dollar value on stress, I doubt our home would be considered "affordable".

When I first visited this forum, I was eager to learn if ‘modern’ was affordable for me. It was my understanding that modern was available anywhere – for a price. Anything can be done if you have deep pockets. But I, like anyone, have a certain price that I am willing/able to pay for a home. So my mission was to learn how I can have a modern home at my price. From what I have seen and learned about materials and building systems/methods, it is clearly possible to have both ‘affordable’ and ‘modern’.

But tomorrow is my first formal meeting with a prospective builder and all I am concerned about is whether or not our design tastes will scare him off. If there is any substance to my worries, then it will be true that ‘availability’ is the real issue.

One thing I have found is that for builders much like customers predictability is the big comfort level. For most builders it is not that they don't like modern so they will make it more expensive. Its that they are not sure how it comes together and hence not sure how much it will cost. This leads to cushioning the price.

When they build a traditional house for instance, lets look at the overhangs as one small piece: they know what soffit boards will run them, they know how they are framing it and how much time it will take. Look at the drawings together - ask him if anything jumps out at him as unfamiliar or uncertain about how it goes together. See if more info can be provided to set him at ease.

This is not to say that you won't encounter predjudice, or somebody who won't flat out try to talk you into another design! Watch for the body english. Look for the guy who is excited and interested, or the guy for who its completely over there head that there is anything unusual! They will have a good attitude. Beware of squirmers or challenges to the heart of your project!

Yes, I'm not trying to say that Prefab can not be affordable. It can, but its really no different than custom building at this point. You can, obviously, make a very expensive prefab house if you want too. The most distinct difference at this point is if a factory is offering a modern house you can be reasonably sure the get it and are ready and willing. That's the part that may be questionable when you search for a local builder for your one-of custom.

I just wish the prefab places would stop mentioning how building in a factory is more affordable.

To me, affordable modern architecture is stuff by Brian MacKay-Lyons. So to those who have given up, it IS possible.

If your plan sticks to standard building techniques (forget the steel post and beam construction, concrete walls, and walls of glass), my educated guess is that a modern custom home will only run you about 5% more than a custom McMansion. Even here, I think the majority of the difference is cleaner detailing and insistance in a higher quality of materials (wood floors instead of carpet, Hansgrohe instead of American Standard) rather than the "modern" design.

The bigger problem is that, at this point, a modern house must be a custom house. Custom houses probably cost 20%-30% over the cost of a volume builder house with the same design. Volume builders building 20 of the same house can really get the cost per sqft down. Exacerbating the problem, while McMansion lovers can buy a set of plans for $500 out of a catalog or off the internet, if you want a modern set of plans, you can either buy one of Greg's six plans, or you can hire an architect. This can add another 8%-15%.

But, the good news is that with availability and acceptance of modern design will come more stock plans and volume builders building modern at a lower cost per unit. So, with availability will come affordability... I hope.

More modern stock plans are coming from other architects - I am not alone in this.

Prefabs can also provide the affordable option, but vendors have to be willing to go for that market. Its hard to justify when they have people lining up for the products that are offered at 150$/sqft and up. And it will never happen unless they believe the market is strong there. What makes it tougher is the lower your budget the less risk tolerant you are. So when I try to get something like the Common Modular Project off the ground this group of buyers is very reluctant to stick their neck out to help make it happen. Even more than the more affluent buyers this group needs to see the product first hand and know what they are buying into.

Wouldnt this title take the confusion out of affordable? I think when somebody reads a title, they sort of expect to get that product. You wouldnt rent a movie called "Faces of Death", and expect to see an enchanting love story of a couple who falls in love emailing one another. Am I missing something?!?

When LiveModern first came on line, there was a big debate about this very topic. In the end, everyone agreed (maybe by default) that "making modernism affordable" was a better tag line then "making modernism available." But all in all, helping people build a modern house (with non-standard details and materials) and helping them find the lowest cost fixtures and furniture to put it all together on a budget is a pretty decent goal. And realistically, if most modern houses are built at $150-$350/sqft, then helping people go modern for $110/sqft is helping make it (relatively) affordable. And again, "LiveModern: Making Modernism Relatively Affordable" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

I think there are lots of ways to describe what holds us all together (there's a lot more than just prefabs going on at LiveModern), and I'm not sure that only one of them fits us all. I also think it's going to be a while before reaching any of these goals meets a community consensus.

If I changed the tag line at all, it would be to "Live Better at LiveModern" because I find that so many people assume that LiveModern is pronounced with a long i.

Marshall

Lyle Lovett had an album (CD) out a few years ago made up of live recordings. It was called "Live in Texas" and on a talk show I heard him insist that it should be pronounced with a short i.

Just so you know, I did not bring this up because I thought we should change the heading or slogan or whatever. I just think that peoples expectations are out of line. It seems that the people who want an inexpensive house are in the majority of complaining about price and in the minority of buying houses! We can do affordable houses but the people that want them have to step up to the plate and be ready to buy. The process and level of customer service will not be the same as it is with a 250$/sqft house, at least not now, and these buyers are sure to have a more difficult time and need to make many of the many loose ends happen themselves just as the Sages did. But they can get an affordable house if they want to.

I hate to "scold" them as I really try to champion the people looking for the affordable home, but we won't get anywhere if you don't build. You have to move forward and commit to building.

Okay, fine, dont re-name the website. :)

"It seems that the people who want an inexpensive house are in the majority of complaining about price and in the minority of buying houses! We can do affordable houses but the people that want them have to step up to the plate and be ready to buy."

Perhaps the problem is that building a house in many area can be quite difficult. The choice to go modern, or better yet modern modular/prefab is only one small piece of the pie. Securing the $, permits, approval to undertake such a project as building a home might be driving many away.

I agree with you to some extent. However, I am having trouble finding a company in MA who will do a modern design and build in in Wellfleet on Cape Cod. ANy suggestions?

There are a few modular factories in upstate NY that may be willing to go across MA. You posted in the Prefab factory thread in the forums. I had posted a link there. You should check that site for factory locations: http://www.buildingsystems.org/ They list by state.

Again, its likely we won't solve the Affordable problem until we first solve the Available problem.

i agree, rebrand the masthead. they did it with dwell, why not do it here. davidsage made a great point, especially if you follow that blog, I dont know how someone could think it's affordable. ossible, yes, but not affordable in most markets...

Just think about everything you have to do for a custom home: 1. Custom Design - say 20-30k 2. Custom engineering plans - redo's 3. Location of materials and not buying in bulk 4. figuring out issues on site 5. Shipping of hundreds of individual parts to site location 6. Working with contractors not used to modern design 7. Hiring a quality control inspector and dealing with the issues they uncover

Just thinking of all the issues I've encountered when building in south florida - rainy days, material delays, sourcing supplies on an individual basis, engineering firm cost overruns, plan redraws, working with private architects.

Yes comparing a "development" to pre-fab might not be fair - but the one gets econcmies of scale by plan reuse, buying in bulk, and one time engineering plan approvals - all the same things pre-fab gets - so why is pre-fab more expensive than a comparibly outfitted home done in a development - and frankly about 10-15% more expensive than going custom. Its the question I and many others are asking.

The dwell homes listing at about 250 a sq. foot price them equivalently with luxury custom homes in our area.

I won't comment on the original post in this thread, but only to your reaction to it. And I'll reply from my experience to date, working with several architects that offer a prefab product.

First, I think you point to many of the pressure points in the prefab cost equation. But you have wrongly assumed that some of them can be scaled to reduce the overall cost of replicating a building. I'll address each of them by your numbering system.

1. Custom Design - say 20-30K. True, if someone wants exactly the floor plan that is offered as standard, the architectural fees associated with this can be dramatically lowered. But it cannot be eliminated, as there is still face time with any client (they truly appreciate this). During that face time, most clients indicate design changes. All of a sudden, it's not a standard, lowest-cost design. It's the client's choice, to make the building fit their lifestyle, lot, whatever. And while a modified design can be quite a bit more than a standard design, it's usually much lower than starting from scratch on a completely custom design.
2. Custom Engineering Plans - redo's. This is somewhat like the first one, but often clients misunderstand what is involved in engineering for prefab. Sure, a standard plan has been engineered after the first customer, but for what jurisdiction? If a prefabber tried to pass engineering plans past Florida that were actually developed for Montana, they'd be laughed out of the office. Even differences between counties can be significant, and it's finding and engineering for the differences that drives up the cost of engineering. Then there is always the site-specific engineering (both civil and structural), for the foundation. That is always different. So, just because a building has been engineered once does not mean that it will never need to be engineered again. On the flip side, some of the engineering has been done, and will meet many other codes. So you will end up somewhere in between on costs.
3. Location of materials and not buying in bulk. Prefab should be able to do this, but no prefabber is building in bulk. Rather, they order one home at a time. No one, regardless of their position in the supply chain, will offer them a price break. Once they do start building in bulk, prefabbers should get much more favorable pricing from factories and their suppliers. Besides, any local contractor that is worth your attention will be getting good discounts on their materials. The question is whether or not you will see the savings passed on to you.
4. Figuring out issues on site. I guess I'm missing your point here. This is always custom as no two sites are the same. Even contiguous sites.
5. Shipping of hundreds of individual parts to site location. As long as those parts have value added to them, over and above what you could find locally, this is a necessary cost of doing business. In most cases, this is the real cost difference between prefab and custom local construction. As more and more of any home is built elsewhere (the undeniable trend), this differential should also disappear. Now it's already disappeared in local construction as you never see the delivery charges.
6. Working with contractors not used to modern design. I think the difference here is not in cost, but in availability (I know, back to the original thread topic). Of course, this will vary on the type of prefab used (modular, SIPs, other panellized, a kit home, etc.), but more often than not it's hard to find anybody that will do any kind of custom construction at a reasonable rate. They are all quite busy. Contractors, naturally, will gravitate to the higher budget jobs, especially for the projects that are not assembled in the factory (modulars), and that in and of itself will tent to drive up the cost (especially between estimate and completion). The more you remove these assembly costs to the factory, the lower the overall cost of the building should be.
7. Hiring a quality control inspector and dealing with issues they uncover. Again, this will depend on the typ of prefab used. Some methods are better than others in keeping quality control as a high priority.

I agree that prefab is at a price point that is higher than many in the market would like. But consider two things:

1. It's clear that there is a large market for more affordable modernist prefabs. We're still in the early stages of the emergence of this industry, and I'm sure there will be solutions soon. Maybe it's not on your timeline, which is unfortunate. But if there is such a large market, there will be a solution. It's just not there yet for you.
2. I was talking to a marketing rep of one of the preffabbers recently, who shared a bit of insight on the market. While no one disagrees that there is a large enough market at all price points, it's only the higher end of the market that actually does something about their desires. They did market research on the people that had contacted them about their product, and cross tabbed it to their original construction budget. Above a certain point ($500,000 I think it was), they found that prospective clients actually did something (built a home, not necessarily the one from this company). Below that point, where the vast majority of the market was, the prospective clients had done little or nothing. They had the money to build a home, not as much as they might have liked but a nice -- even modern -- home in most markets. Yet the vast majority of that group had done little or nothing to actually build a home.

Is it any wonder that the company that did the research decided to build for a certain segment of the market? I don't think it's because they could make more money on a higher end home, but they could make some money simply because a home would get built. I think most entrants in the prefab market intuited that.

Again, going back to the original thread, I think this is one of Greg's main points. There are lower price point prefab products on the market, but most of the buildings that are being built are at a higher price point. The situation will not change until actual market is proven by customers that actually build. Maybe the problem is simply in design, that there are not enough lower price point products to choose from.

Marshall

But I'll contend its a chicken or egg scenario. I'd love a modernist home. I'm in the 550 - 600k market. But if I can build for that price - why would I buy pre-manufactured? There are too many design constaints then... I only get selections - not real freedom of choice.

I'd rather just hire an architect and builder and go to town. I'm happy with 1800 - 2400 sq. feet. So - I'm guessing for me pre-fab isn't the way to go... because from what I see the only current advantage is time to build.

I'd suggest that the market they researched might occassionally do something - but that at this end of the market - these folks could just as easily afford to build local.

If you are in the 5-600k range then there is certainly less reason to go for PreFab. But timing is not the only compelling reason at this cost range. It remains that many people do not lavish going through the design process and prefer to make selections, and perhaps "customize" from a known starting point. Sometimes they are simply smitten with the existing design of a prefab, or the notion of the whole process. Some don't value the investment in a designer even at this budget level where you could feasibly spend 60k on your architect, or more and so prefer to buy a product with a given design. Obviously you could spend less on your architect too, but it hardly makes sense to spend so much on a house, and not invest in a good design as well. With prefab the cost of that good design is spread thin among many buyers.

I agree with Greg's points, and there are others as well. there are no hard and fast rules, and most customers will make their decision based on a combination of rational and emotional factors. Then there are givens, such as where the project is. In most CA communities, the cost is a deal. But I can certainly understand where this may not be so in more rural states. But there, often it is a problem finding a contractor that will build to a modern spec, or even finding a contractor at all since they all seem to be so busy. So there are all kinds of variables that will affect the decision to go custom or go prefab.

Marshall

Its not there yet. I think some day it will. But some people interested in buying at the lower price points are going to have to stick their necks out and work through a project with a designer and a factory the way that the Sages did. The more of this that can happen, then the sooner the market can provide for this segment.

After doing research online I would say there is no free lunch of modern design and affordability. The only way I see affordability in these times, w/out tons of modern builders/prefab plans getting real competitive and efficient, is a very minimalist shell of a home w/ very few room divisions. Something similar to a barebones loft w/ 4 walls, exposed utilities and not much else.

I have dealt w/ small town commercial/industrial builders and contractors in MN who are able to work very cheaply per square foot except we are talking 70,000+ sq ft buildings. Not sure I could get the same economies of scale on a residential project (precast tilt up, shotcrete, post&beam, concrete block etc..)

The twin cities is starving for modern design and I'll keep trying to figure out a solution. Using cheaper industrial type off the shelf materials for residential instead of more typical applications, using building methods known to local crews, and simple but elegant design is the key to affordability.

Another point in this great residential boom is even if someone comes up w/ the dream team of modern affordable why would they market it as affordable? If I came up w/ an awesome modern solution why wouldn't I want to maximize my profits and charge the market rates of building a home? Even if my method is superior and much cheaper, I'd rather make the extra profit for my hard innovative work. This is why "one-off" methods will continue until someone standardizes it. The key is finding builders and architects who want to work outside the box to bring you an affordable modern box!

we are attempting to do just what you describe with the EcoSteel houses with Northern Steel. We are using a commercial building system to put square footage under roof affordably, which you can then finish to a level that suits your taste and/or your budget. And we are very pleased to do it at well under the boutique prices that people are complaining about.